Al_Gore has arrived.
Atty_Brooks says, "Who is the speaker?"
Al_Gore says, "The speaker is Laura Gasaway, director of the UNC law
Al_Gore says, "and expert on copyright.."
Dr_Quendon bows deeply to Gasaway
Al_Gore says, "Lolly, try get conch"
Laura_Gasaway picks up the conch shell.
Laura_Gasaway says, "Hi everyone"
Dr_Oneil has arrived.
Laura_Gasaway says, "I am glad to be here with the class and to have the
opportunity to talk abut you excellent drafts"
Laura_Gasaway says, "To begin the session, I have specific comments for
particular writers.  I can hargly believe that you are just freshjmen!  You did
a great job!"
Laura_Gasaway says, "To Dr. Addams:  In England the first copyrights actually
belonged to printers and ot not to publishers, so you may want to correct
Animal has arrived.
Laura_Gasaway says, "Also, at the end of the 1st paragraph, you need to include
the word "fixed" in tangible form.  Fisa Fixttion is a critical concept (that
is fixation)"
Dr_Kiroi has arrived.
Laura_Gasaway says, "Last comment to Addams - statutes are not enacted in the
Constitution.  Put your sentence about the constitution first and then the 2d
can just say in 1790 the first U.S. copyright statute was enacted"
Laura_Gasaway says, "To Max:  At the end of the last para.   Copyright usually
rests with faculty in universities not with the univ.  This is the opposite of
Wilhelm goes down.
Laura_Gasaway says, "There is a good new article in vol. 37 # 2 of the
Villanova L. Rev. (1992) that surveys 70 research univ. about their policies ad
and might help you."
Laura_Gasaway says, "To Sen. Jefferson - when you mention the Reid decision,
you must include a citation to it."
Laura_Gasaway says, "To Dr. Kiroi - Concerning the Apple computer case, was
this not a copyright case instead of a patent case?"
Animal goes down.
Laura_Gasaway says, " To Dr. Richards - see comment to Dr. Addams re using the
complete phrase "fixed in tangible format."
Laura_Gasaway says, "To Dr. Quendon:  Shrink wrap licensing is not used by all
software vendors at all.  It is used by many."
Laura_Gasaway says, "See the case Vault v. Quaid, 85    847 F.2d 255 (5th Cir.
1988) for a La.     case that held shrink warap la  licenses were contrary to
the unfair competition laws of the statae of Louisiana."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Re transferring programs.  Note the 1990 amendment to the
act that added sec. 109(b)(1)(A) and talks specifically about how univ. can
transpfer programs"
Laura_Gasaway says, "That is all of my comments on the draft.  Wuold you like
to ask me questions?"
Laura_Gasaway drops the conch shell.
Al_Gore says, "I'll start with one, if that's ok.."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Sure"
Dr_Quendon says, "shoot:"
Al_Gore says, "In earlier discussions on intellectual property, we were trying
to figure out whether economic property and intellectual property were
inextricably connected.."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Go ahead "
Al_Gore says, "is it your impression that intellectual property and economic
property can be, or often are, separated?"
Laura_Gasaway says, "I say that is interesting!  They are conected but ip can
exist for reasons other than economic exploitation such as when the author
merely wants to control how her work is used as opposed to making bucks on it."
Al_Gore says, "So copyright doesn't necessarily imply economic ownership?"
Laura_Gasaway says, "Yes, it does imply economic ownership, but perhaps the
owner of the copyright chooses not to exercise it.  Certainly, the normal
expectation is that the creator hopes toreap the financial reward for the
copyrightable work produced."
Dr_Garcia says, "cant you say that about all property?"
Al_Gore says, "but under copyright agreements, authors can sign away economic
OPA says, "we need a question Queue."
Laura_Gasaway says, "That is a good point, Dr. B.Garcia"
Dr_Quendon says, "Just take numbers"
Al_Gore says, "good idea, OPA: build us one...."
OPA says, "don't have the resources"
Laura_Gasaway says, "Certainly the author can sign ab  away the rights and he
or she must do so often to the publisher"
Al_Gore says, "Lolly, a number of the drafts were trying to establish whether
there were special problems for ip raised by computer technology..."
Al_Gore says, "can you say what you think those problems are?"
Dr_Oneil says, "ooh good point al"
Atty_Robinson says, ""That would be helpful Ma'am""
Laura_Gasaway says, "There are special problems but ther are not necessarily
with copyright.  It is the underlying work that is protected by copyright.  For
example, a database is merel y a compilation which is protected as a it
literary work."
Laura_Gasaway says, "The primary problem is that the technology permits such
instant mass distribution of works which impacts on copyright but is not
synonymous with it."
Al_Gore says, "sorry, missed a connection there: what is not synonymous with
copyright? mass distribution?"
Atty_Robinson says, ""Excuse me...doesn't CR just protect the format of info
and not the actual info?""
Al_Gore says, "perhaps we should back up to a definition of "underlying work"?"
Laura_Gasaway says, "The very fact that mass distribution exists does not mean
that copryight is differenct for elec. media."
Atty_Robinson says, ""in databeses for example""
Al_Gore says, "I see."
Al_Gore says, "do computer raise special problems for the idea of being "fixed
in a tangible format"?"
Dr_Rossi has arrived.
Dr_Wallace has arrived.
Laura_Gasaway says, "Yes, the form of expression is protected which is not
quite the same thing as format.  If the information is fact, then it is in the
public domani, but some information might be creative in nature and not be in
the public domain,"
OPA says, "several years ago there was a debate on the copyrightability of the
"look and feel" of a program....(between Lotus1-2-3 and VisiCalc) what was the
outcome of that legal brawl(if it is over yet) or what are the arguments on
each side(if you know and if it is not finished yet)??"
Al_Gore says, "a database of facts--say, names and addresses--can be coyrighted
if there is creative work done in the selection and ordering--the form--of the
OPA says, "i.e. are the "look and feel"of the interface copyrightable???"
Dr_Oneil says, ""
Von_Braun says, "I believe Apple and Microsoft are having the same battle."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Re fixation in tangible form:the statute says that a work
is elibible form the time of fixation in a tangible means of expression of more
or less permanent duration (the latter part csme from the legis. history).  To
be fixed, then elec. medias has to be dtstored soemwhere on a disk, etc."
OPA says, "yes they are"
Laura_Gasaway says, "Al, I me  missed your look and feel question."
Al_Gore says, "That was OPA's: about Lotus 123 and visicalc..."
Al_Gore says, "do you remember the arguments on either side, and/or the
OPA says, "I think that was mine  are the "look and feel" of a user interface
Laura_Gasaway says, "There are some serious problems in the software area in
trying to determine when one porgram infringes another.  The look and feel
cases are trying to deal with ht this problem, but some feel pretty
Von_Braun says, "Has anything been decided at this point?"
Laura_Gasaway says, "Some writers believe we need a hybrid form of protection
for sowftware which would give 5-10 e  years of protection and woudl be
semi-copyright and semi-0patent"
OPA says, "so no determinization has been made..."
OPA says, "determination I mean"
Laura_Gasaway says, "Well, so far, programs are eleibl  eligible for copyright
protection.  That muvh is clear.  How to judge infringement is the problem, and
the Supreme Court has not yet decided this."
Al_Gore says, "so the problems raised for ip by computers are not so much in
the definitions and categories, but in the application of those categories?
For example, with infringement in programs..."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Yes, that is a good way to look at it.  There are some
questions about ehat what is actually protected too.  For example, it really
defies logic to define software as literary works, but Congress says they are
lit. works."
Al_Gore says, "doesn't that suggest that we need new categories and
Laura_Gasaway says, "Eigher new cat's and defin's or an entirely new statute
for programs."
Dr_Oneil says, ""
Laura_Gasaway says, "Does everyone understand why software is not typical in
the literary works category?"
Von_Braun says, "yes"
OPA says, "how long would new statutes take to make"
OPA says, "{and pass"
Dr_Richards says, "because it is not writtten just to be read, but also has an
Dr_Oneil says, "apologies..."
Laura_Gasaway says, "There is a model for such a statute, the Semi-conducter
chip act of 1984 which passed and gives 10 years of protection for chips which
is like copyright is in some ways but also permits reverse engineering which is
a patent concept."
Dr_Wayne says, ""No, why isn't software 'literature'?""
Laura_Gasaway says, "Other literary works fit our traditional understanding,
books, novels, poems, speeches, compilations like directories, dictionaries,
etc. Software just sis not the same, especially when one is dealing with s
windows and the visual displays, how the software is contructed, etc.  One is
almost into form or idea then and not traditional plagarism."
OPA says, "can literature crunch numbers??"
Dr_Oneil says, "only magic literature"
Al_Gore says, "Lolly: section 151's class time is over, and some of them will
have to go to other classes.  Anyone who wants to is welcome to stay, of
course, and you can all play back the tape of the whole session any time..."
Laura_Gasaway says, "No, unless you mean throw a heavy volmene on top of some
numbers and smash it really hard!"
Dr_Wayne says, ""and magic numbers""
Von_Braun says, ":-)"
OPA giggles
Dr_Oneil grins
Dr_Richards says, "thanks for your time, LG"
Atty_Brooks laughs
Dr_Richards disappears suddenly for parts unknown.
Von_Braun says, "Thank you very much!"
Dr_Wayne goes down.
Dr_James says, "thanks"
Laura_Gasaway says, "Al, shal I start with the rviews of the drafts for the 2d
Senator_Jefferson smiles
Dr_Addams goes down.
Atty_Brooks says, "Thank you, Ms. G"
Atty_Robinson says, ""Yes, thank you.  Bye.""
Dr_Garcia says, "thanks"
Dr_Sands says, "THANKS SO MUCH ""
Dr_Garcia has disconnected.
Atty_Brooks goes down.
Von_Braun goes down.
Senator_Jefferson says, "bye"
Atty_Robinson has disconnected.
Al_Gore says, "Lolly, let me take you into the green room for a brief break
between classes..."
Dr_Oneil says, "thank ya mam""
Senator_Jefferson goes down.
Dr_Oneil says, "brb richards"
Dr_Oneil goes down.
Al_Gore says, "that way if you have to leave the keyboard for a minute...."
Dr_Sands has disconnected.
OPA says, "bye and thanks from all of us I am sure"
Laura_Gasaway says, "Al, sounds good , I could use a breather and would
appreciate your letting me know if this is what you have in mind or if you want
a directional diff. for the next class."
Dr_Kiroi says, "Thank your very much!"
Al_Gore says, "follow me by typing the letter n, and hitting enter."
Dr_Quendon has disconnected.
Dr_James says, "anyone doing maple for 241-I need help!"
Dr_Wallace says, "I'm doing it"
OPA goes down.
Dr_Rossi says, "NO!!!"
Dr_Wallace says, "But I don't know if it's the same assignment"
Dr_James says, "Do you know how?"
Dr_Wallace says, "How what?"
Dr_James says, "I'm not in honors"
Dr_Rossi says, "Not really, hated 241."
Dr_Wallace says, "Lets go to the tunnels and I'll see if I can help"
Dr_Kiroi goes down.
Dr_Rossi says, "I dislike 242 even more."
Dr_James says, "I'm lost in it"
Dr_Wallace goes down.
Dr_James goes down.
Dr_Rossi says, "i know the feeling."
Dr_Rossi goes down.
The housekeeper arrives to cart Dr_Garcia off to bed.
The housekeeper arrives to cart Atty_Robinson off to bed.
The housekeeper arrives to cart Dr_Sands off to bed.
The housekeeper arrives to cart Dr_Quendon off to bed.
Dr_Rossi has arrived.
Dr_Lutin has arrived.
Atty_Morgan has arrived.
Dr_Belmont has arrived.
Dr_Wallace has arrived.
Atty_Davis has arrived.
Dr_McKagen has arrived.
Dr_Sommers has arrived.
Dr_Flowers has arrived.
Dr_Keynes has arrived.
Dr_Grapefruit has arrived.
Dr_Lutin says, "Yes, the plant type stuff was nicely suited to the brickyard."
Dr_Briarly has arrived.
Laura_Gasaway has arrived.
Al_Gore has arrived.
Dr_Grapefruit says, "so where is everyone sitting?"
Dr_Lutin says, "Hi, Ms. Gasaway"
Al_Gore says, "hello all: allow me to introduce....."
Al_Gore says, "Laura Gasaway, the director of the UNC law library.  Ms. Gasaway
also teaches copyright law in the UNC law school.  She's looked over your
drafts, and I think she'd like to start with some specific comments for each of
you.  Get your notebooks out, eh?"
Laura_Gasaway picks up the conch shell.
Dr_Hagenstone has arrived.
Dr_Stone has arrived.
Laura_Gasaway says, "I am glad to be with the class this a.m. and do have
comments for you.  First I want to recommend that you look at a book by Eh
Ethan Katsh entitled The elect  electronic media and the transformation of law,
1989.  It has some great stuff for your class."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Dr. Whitetree:  In your draft, done't use a nutsdhell as
a source.  These are handy dandy little one-volume sg  guides for students, but
it would be beter to quote the maljor authorieis like Nimmer on Copyright or
Chisum on Patents.  You shoul dhave both in your library."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Also, the US pat. system has not yet gone to 1st to file.
This is unjder some discussion, but there are major objections, not the least
of which is the"
Laura_Gasaway says, "constitutional clause:  whosever invents   which many say
means the system must remain a 1st to invent system.  It will be interesting to
watch, however."
A small swarm of 3x5 index cards arrives, engulfs Al_Gore, and carries him
A small swarm of 3x5 index cards blows in and disperses, revealing Al_Gore.
Laura_Gasaway says, "Lastly, I don't understand you stattment about privacy
rights that accompany copyright.  Copyright grants five rights to authors, but
there aren not privascy rights.  These 5 rts are unique to copyright:  you
know, rproduction, distrib."
Laura_Gasaway says, "To Briarly - your vision of the library of the future is
limited only to electornic media.  You might go and talk to Ms. Nutter, the
director of the NCSAU  oops!  NCSU library.  She is very knowledgeable about
the future of the research library."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Atty Davis:  your first sentenct, ip lawyers would not
agree thst laws are vague and amib  ambif  ambigous.  Do you mean that the law
does not draw a bright line so that an author can tell whether the work is
protected or whether there is infringement?"
Laura_Gasaway says, "There also are many articles that propose a whole new form
of protection for software, something between copyright and patent with 5-10
uyears of protection.  "
Laura_Gasaway says, "To Atty Morgan:  cit to the clasuse number of the
constitution also  .  It is 8."
Laura_Gasaway says, "In the discussion of the Act and new technologies.
Nowhere in the Act is the word videocassette mentioned. Do you mean audiovisual
works?  That was a new type of protectable materials under the 1976 act."
Laura_Gasaway says, "In the patent paragraph, 2d sentenct.  Change the word
code to staute   statute to be correct.  The explanation of why is long....."
Laura_Gasaway says, "To Dr. Grapefruit:  Your tradesecret discussion.  The
para. disscusses the fed. govt. has it backwards.  Under our system of govt.
everything not given to the feds i the const. autho  automatically goes to the
state.  So, the feds t do not deal with tradesecret.   Therefore, the feds
don't allow the states to regulate trade secrets.  Because the const. does not
reuirethe feds to do it, it is up to states."
Laura_Gasaway says, "The 1974 Kewanee case was about whther the federal patent
law apreempted state trade secret law not about wheter the states could
regulate secrets."
Laura_Gasaway says, "In ASpple v. Franklin - when you cite the U.S. Ct. of
Appeals, you must include the circuit.  There are thirteen of these suckers!"
Laura_Gasaway says, "To Dr. Hagebstone - Don Quigg is not just a specialist in
ip.  He is the former Commissioner of Paztents - the chief patent guru of the
Laura_Gasaway says, "to Dr. Rossi - Re 1st to file patent system....ditto
comment to Dr. Whitetree."
Laura_Gasaway says, "You have done a great job, all of you.  I csan hardly
believe you are freshmen!"
Laura_Gasaway drops the conch shell.
Dr_Lutin says, "Thanks."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Would you just like to ask me questions now?"
Dr_Wallace says, "nice compliment"
Al_Gore says, "Questions anyone?  Either in re: LG's comments on your drafts,
or on more general topics?"
Dr_Rossi says, "I thought I said it way you did."
Laura_Gasaway says, "You did.  My ditto meant to include the criticism of the
proposal to go to 1st to file - i.e., that it would violate the constitutional
mandate   of   whosever invents...."
Dr_Rossi says, "okay, thanks."
Dr_Belmont says, "If you didn't make a comment on our draft, do we assume that
you think they're fine?"
Dr_Keynes says, "what about Dr_Keynes"
Al_Gore says, "or else that those drafts weren't in when I sent LG her copy..."
Dr_Wallace says, "Or at least nothing from your field wrong?"
Laura_Gasaway says, "Yep, I did not find any substantive matter on which to
comment or as Al says, the t  drafts were not a in."
Dr_Lutin says, "When were the drafts sent?"
Al_Gore says, "last Tuesday evening, I think."
Laura_Gasaway says, "I received them by e-mail yesterday monrning"
Al_Gore says, "so Lutin, yours was in.  you may dance a jig now."
Al_Gore clears the floor
Dr_Belmont says, "Do you know whether there has been any final negotiations in
the Uruguay Round of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, if you are
aware of these discussions?"
Laura_Gasaway LG snickers.
Dr_Lutin says, "  Any ideas, Ms. Gasaway, on cases relating present property
laws to IP laws?"
Dr_Lutin says, "I use hypothetical situations, but real situations would have
been nice, I think."
Erik has arrived.
Laura_Gasaway says, "Re GATT:  this has rally bogged down because of the change
in administration.  I heard on NPR last week or so, that the Clinton Admin.
really needs to make some decisions on thises issues."
Dr_Hagenstone says, "Can you explain exactly what the Uruguay Round GATT is?'"
Dr_Belmont says, "As usual, a democratic administration which has no position
on any foreign policy."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Present property laws... Hmmmmm  Well, ip has all of the
atributes of real property.  The owner of ip can will it to heris  heirs, sel l
it, give it away, mortagae  mortgate  oops!  mortgate mortgage it, etc."
Dr_Keynes says, "ditto on Mr. Belmont's statement"
Dr_Wallace says, "lets not start that again, belmont"
Laura_Gasaway says, "One major difference, of course, is that real property
cannot be readiyduplicated."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Only God or the big boom can create land."
Al_Gore says, "here comes virtual reality, though, to mess up that
Laura_Gasaway says, "I am not sure one could every will virtual property to
another person, however."
Dr_Belmont says, "Hagenstone, The Uruguay Round of GATT is the set of
negotiations which started back in 1987 to hammer out some serious trade
problems on the international front.  One of the U.S.'s major objectives in
these talks has been to secure a strong international intellectual property
agreement especially in regard to computers, new technology, and new media."
Dr_Hagenstone says, "Thank you very much Belmont.""
Al_Gore says, "Lolly, in the last class session you were talking about special
problems, if any, raised for IP by computer technology...and you were saying
that, in essence, you didn't think that computers necessarily call our
categories of IP into question, but they do make those categories more
difficult to apply..."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Correct, but the problems have arisen becaue we are net
exporters of copyrightable works while the developing world is an importer.
You   whichever of you discussed B  GATT did a d  good jow i  job on that."
Dr_Rossi says, "what decisions are yet to made in the GATT?  i.e. by the
Clinton admin."
Al_Gore says, "could you perhaps return to that for a minute?  after GATT..."
Laura_Gasaway says, "What I see as the difficulty is with the definition of
sofwtware ass a literary work when the courts then try to determine whether a
program infringes another.  It is easy when the 2d program is a clone.  It is
not easy when certain structures hav ebeen used but not the entire program."
Wilhelm materializes out of thin air.
Wilhelm goes down.
Laura_Gasaway says, "Al can you repeart your last comment?"
Al_Gore says, "I was just wondering about you think this is a
likely solution to the conflict between the need for free exchange of
information and the need to protect economic interests where networked data and
software are concerned?"
Al_Gore says, "someone in the other class mailed me an interesting piece on the
licensing of gopher, for example..."
Dr_Belmont says, "hey that was me in this class...I thought!"
Dr_Wallace says, "The you'd better read it one?"
Laura_Gasaway says, "Yes, I do, and license restrictions probably offer more
solutions than traditional copyright or patent protection.  Of course, software
vendors tried to use shrink licensing to narrow the sec. 107 rights  ooops the
sec. 117 rights."
Dr_Hagenstone says, "I read that and am wondering who does pay for the gopher
Al_Gore says, "where their basic attitude seems to be that the software was
developed to be freely used; sorry...Belmont, you're right--freely used, but if
someone is going to make money off it, then they want a licensing fee...What
are sec. 117 rights?"
Al_Gore says, "Hagenstone, the university of minnesota paid for the time of its
employees when they developed it..."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Sec. 117 is the section that permits the owner or licdnsee
of a program to make copies of the program in 2 instances:  when it is
necessary to use it on a particulasr machine and for archival purposes."
Al_Gore says, "Oh, right.  I remember.  "
Dr_Hagenstone says, "Thanks but did they have to get permission to use the info
they use.'"
Al_Gore says, "we get the gopher for free, Hagenstone..."
Al_Gore says, "is that what you mean?"
Laura_Gasaway says, "Hagenstone asks a good question.  Copyright does not
govern the right to use matiral but to reproduce, distribute, adapt, etc."
Dr_Wallace says, "So if they put it on the network is that distribution?"
Laura_Gasaway says, "A license agreement can cover the right to use the info.
in particular ways since the agreement is contract governed by state law
instead of fed. copyright."
Al_Gore says, "doesn't copyright govern use as far as "fair use"?"
Laura_Gasaway says, "Yes, loading on a newtork is at least the prelude to
distribution.  Actual distribution occurys when we read or download or copy the
information from the network."
Dr_Wallace says, "So do they get permission to put the stuff online?"
Dr_Grapefruit says, "but then isn't dirstribution like the right to use
Laura_Gasaway says, "Fair use.  Yes, but fasir   fair use is related only to
the five exclusive rights of the copyright owner.  Fair use deals with uses
that rerpoduce, distribute, etc., not just to read the information."
Al_Gore says, "wait, I think we better separate two things here..."
Laura_Gasaway says, "No, distribution is the right to distribute the copies
Al_Gore says, "in the gopher example...."
Dr_Lutin says, "What are the five exclusive rights?"
Al_Gore says, "gopher is a program that gives you access to networked
Laura_Gasaway says, "Reproduction, distribution, adaptation, performance &
Al_Gore says, "the program is available on the net: I can ftp it from umn, and
set it up on EOS, then you all can use the program to browse the net."
Al_Gore says, "the information copied, distributed, displayed is twofold:
gopher itself as a program, and the data that this program gives you access
Laura_Gasaway says, "So, what we would be talking about with gopher is the
using of networked information via gph  gopher.  I guess someone could rproduce
gopher, and then there would be infringement.  But not just using it."
Al_Gore says, "ah, but if I ftp a copy of gopher from umn, am I using it or
reproducing it?"
Dr_Belmont says, "Do you think that the networks should be made available to
developing countries too?  Many LDC's (lesser developed countries) will pirate
this information..."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Al, what is ftw  ftp?  Does it entail loading on a hard
disk, etc?"
Dr_Lutin says, "Maybe at this point, publishing on the net is considered
automatic net-universal distribution"
Al_Gore says, "nets are available in many developing nations: where they're
not, it has usually been for two reasons: the country itself doesn't have the
necessary infrastructure to do the telecommunications, or there are political
reasons...the latter is less common now.."
Al_Gore says, "LG, ftp is a means of copying a file from one file system to
another, across the net."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Belmont, you are right about the pirating.  Here we have a
conflict of values.  Which is more important, the valude in bringing all
countries to development or economic interests in ip."
Al_Gore says, "ultimately, the file copied resides on a hard drive..."
Al_Gore says, "merely providing access to the net doesn't solve the IP
problems...didn't mean to imply that..."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Al, then a copy has been made and the work was reproduced;
therefore, the copyright owner could claim infringement becaue you have
violated one ot the exclusinve rights.  I suspect your agreement or the fact
thst is free changes this; but assume it is commercial software, then that is
the answer."
Dr_Belmont says, "Most of my research has shown most experts' opinions to be
that a strong intellectual property agreement will protect the rights of LDCs
once they catch up in the technology race..."
Laura_Gasaway says, "But does it actually slow their cataing up with the
technoocb  tech.?"
Dr_Lutin says, "Yu cant ftp just anything, if its aailable, its free.
Something should probably set up so that NOT everything is so available, I mean
selective availability."
Dr_Rossi says, "but LDC want less ip protection."
Al_Gore says, "OK, re: gopher, the people at UMN are basically saying you can
have it for free if you don't charge for its use, but if you charge, we want a
fee.  This is related to the LDC question, I think: or at least it might be, by
Laura_Gasaway says, "Rossi is right; that way they can get it for free."
Dr_Hagenstone says, "But if we give stuff to developing countries then they
will not advance on their own but stay for the free lunch.""
Laura_Gasaway says, "Al, this means that they have licensed certain rights but
not if you charge."
Al_Gore says, "some of you have suggested that we have a two-tiered policy on
IP for LDC and DCs..."
Dr_Lutin says, "Explan please Al."
Dr_Belmont says, "That's part of the debate.  If the U.S. is successful in
their attempts to secure a strong IP international agreement, it will secure
U.S. superiority for a long time to come; some say that the U.S.'s motives are
purely selfish."
Dr_Wallace says, "So shouldn't it be the two tiered plan?  Wouldn't that be
best for all?"
Laura_Gasaway says, "That is why I addressed the issue about conflicting
values.  It is hard to say which is right or man  maybe which is right for
which purposes."
Al_Gore says, "if you're using IP to catch up, have it for free: if you are
already classified as DC, pay up.  What problems are there with that idea?"
Dr_Rossi says, "could somone explain what they mean by two-tiered system?"
Dr_Lutin says, "The world system is capitalistic and nationalistic"
Dr_Keynes says, "my paper included information about all the money lost by U.S.
Al_Gore says, "one set of rules for one class, another for a different class,
Dr_Briarly says, "IT's a double standard"
Laura_Gasaway says, "If one country gets something for free, it can then start
reproducing, distributin, etc., and the DC has already lost the value of the
ork  work and the copyright."
Dr_Wallace says, "Well, DC's could get it for little from LDC's--take
Al_Gore says, "is the money lost to LDCs?"
Dr_Belmont says, "The nations who paid for the IP are getting cheated and could
eventually fall behind.  Then the question becomes are the LDC's who pass us in
technology going to stand by the policy once they are caught up?"
Dr_Keynes says, "due to infringement, and you expect U.S. companies to give up
Al_Gore says, "ah, a global information-laundering market: I like that,
Dr_Stone says,"What about the argument that we should promote science ahead of
money interest?"
Dr_Lutin says, "We have our country as first in importance, for the most part,
and then other friendly nations (I dont necessarily mean USA)."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Better than money laundering.  Also, wasn't the White
House doing some of this with dispensing misinformation a few years ago?"
Al_Gore says, "Stone, that could be phrased as a long-term interest strategy,
whereas immediate gain is a short-term strategy..."
Al_Gore says, "In Iran-Contra, LG.  Yes."
Dr_Stone says,"We haven't come to a concensus on which is th ebetter approach.
Have we?"
Al_Gore says, "Nope."
Laura_Gasaway says, "If the class can do so, that's great.  Many thinkers just
continue to mull all of this around without being able to determine which value
is more importatn."
Dr_Rossi says, "Something smells awfully ethical about this."
Al_Gore says, "I see your drafts as trying to balance the two interests in some
more or less creative way..."
Dr_Belmont says, "But how can we come to a concensus:  the Clinton
administration can't and so far the Uruguay round can't.  What makes anybody
think that there is a cut and dry situation?"
Dr_Wallace says, "In the long run, shouldn't we be more concerned with
well-being?  In the short term, money could lead to well-being."
Dr_Hagenstone says, "Is it possible to set guidelines that dc must follow in
order that other countries suppling the info cann watch the dc own progress/""
Al_Gore says, "fortunately, we're just writing ethical guidelines, not
Dr_Wallace says, "So are you saying Bush could've?"
Al_Gore smiles...
Dr_Stone says,"If we set up an agreement that is based purely on monetary
exchange we will be doomed to the same inefficient system we currently operate
Al_Gore says, "how about an information loan system, similar to world databank..?"
Dr_Wallace says, "Do you have a better idea, stone?"
Dr_Belmont says, "I'm saying that the Bush administration was cut and
dry...they may have made some mistakes but they waffle around on the issues
trying to please every group."
Dr_Rossi says, "stone, I think we need to talk later."
Dr_Stone says,"But what do the countries pay back."
Dr_Belmont says, "I meant they didn't waffle around..."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Al, that is a very creative approach and would open a
whole new job market for computer folk!"
Al_Gore says, "Information."
Dr_Wallace says, "But I thought you said the GATT thing was supposed ot be
finished befoire clinton got into office?"
Al_Gore says, "later, when they get better and have new stuff of their own,
they owe us."
Al_Gore says, "GATT will never end, I think."
Dr_Stone says,"But what if we already have everything that they have and they
don't catch up."
Dr_Rossi says, "ditto."
Dr_Lutin says, "Could capital be used as collateral in the bank for DC?"
Dr_Briarly says, "l"
Dr_Belmont says, "It was supposed to end but countries such as Brazil and India
etc. are too darn stubborn; I agree with Al."
Laura_Gasaway says, "GATT should have been finishe d years ago, I agre with AL,
it may never be finished bed  because we cannot come to grips with the value s
Laura_Gasaway says, "oops  issue."
Dr_Hagenstone says, "Do you know what the tClinton admin thinks about this.""
Al_Gore says, "assuming that they will never catch up implies that we think
they are less intelligent, less able, or less motivated, Stone."
Laura_Gasaway says, "I have heard nothing about A  GATT, the only treaties
mentioned are the NAFTA negotiations."
Al_Gore says, "Thinks about what, Hagenstone?"
Dr_Hagenstone says, "The GATT issue.""
Dr_Stone says,"No.  I just think that is is possible that they will never catch
up because we are so far ahead.  And we have so many more facilities and
Dr_Belmont says, "in order to know what the Clinton administration thinks about
an first have to know to which audience he is speaking too!"
Al_Gore says, "I think the more likely problem with a world bank for
information is that the system would keep developing countries perpetually in
debt, as the world bank does now.  And/or that with the information would comes
advice and restrictions on how it should be used or developed."
Dr_Hagenstone says, "When is audience are the dc.""
Dr_Wallace says, "But if we help, catching up wouldn't be as slow."
Al_Gore says, "but the interesting thing about information is that there is no
exchange-rate problem..."
Laura_Gasaway says, "And, it is unlikely that DC will want this to be totally
for free.  I mean the g banks that loan to UDC now ask for pay back  with
varying degrees of succes."
Dr_Lutin says, "I think there would be Al, qualitative exchange gets
Al_Gore says, "no worthless russian ruble-ideas, though"
Dr_Stone says,"Yes. But they wouldn't be in a financial debt."
Al_Gore says, "exactly Lutin: good point.  "
Dr_Hagenstone says, "But if we help them catch up does that necessary mean they
will continue to advance?""
Al_Gore says, "I've been around this block, now that I think of it.  "
Laura_Gasaway says, "But they would be in information debt.  How can you foc
force a country to develop information?"
Dr_Grapefruit says, "will they pay us back?'"
Dr_Rossi says, "Is it likely LDC's will ever be non-existant?"
Dr_Lutin says, "never ending negotiations with the bank for the value of info"
Al_Gore says, "the problem is setting a value for information: we use MONEY to
do that now, and it works pretty well, arbitrary as the system may be."
Dr_Stone says,"Our only payback may be the fact htat we know they have a better
standard of living for it."
Dr_Wallace says, "It's impossible for every country to be at the same stage of
Laura_Gasaway says, "Yep, money makes the world go round."
Dr_Hagenstone says, "How does a dc become developed?""
Dr_Lutin says, "What capital could LDC give for the info at first?"
Dr_Rossi says, "I agree with wallace."
Dr_Lutin says, "We did it by going into national debt.  among other policies."
Dr_Belmont says, "An interesting point...isn't in the U.S.'s advantage to have
LDC's in the world?  Who else could we bully and have respect us so that we are
still a major world power?"
Dr_Lutin says, "That was to Hagenstone's comment,."
Dr_Keynes says, "this world revolves around money, so why should we give away
valuable ip"
Al_Gore says, "well, in different ways: we did it originally by colonialism, in
the west."
Al_Gore says, "Japan did something else, though..."
Dr_Wallace says, "MITI"
Dr_Lutin says, "Maybe the world should not revolve around money but info,
Laura_Gasaway says, "Didn't Japan try to become a colonial power during WW II/"
Dr_Stone says,"There are many things that go into classifying DC's.  Among
other things there is infant mortality, life expectancy, population density ,
Al_Gore says, "yes, but they lost: and won by losing..."
Dr_Lutin says, "Sort of romantic, I admit..."
Dr_Stone says,"Interesting point.  But that was our fault."
Al_Gore says, "Now this does bring us back to IP and DCs..."
Al_Gore says, "Japan made a lot of headway economically after WWII by *not*
agreeing to abide by international ip laws, didn't they?"
Dr_Rossi says, "yes."
Dr_Wallace says, "tons"
Dr_Belmont says, "Japan did not even abide by international laws as recently as
the last decade...I suspect that they are guilty of infringement still
Dr_Grapefruit says, "japan basically welcomes piracy in its i.p."
Al_Gore says, "LG, is there an international price attached to information
Dr_Wallace says, "Of course they are...but they also got ahead of us"
Dr_Belmont says, "welcomes...I would say piracy is their policy"
Dr_Wallace says, "Not nec. privacy, but reverse tech."
Dr_Wallace says, "piracy, oops"
Laura_Gasaway says, "Not really, because ip is still governed by each country
although ther are some treaties to recognize the ip of each country.  For a
patent holder to sue an infringer from ath  n  another country, he has to have
jurisdiction ofver that person.  Usually that meand the business is doing su at
leas some business in the us."
Dr_Lutin says, "Should we accept that Japan pirate info, or should the world
community do something about it.  Have the benefits of Japanese progress
outweighed the losses by other countries?"
Dr_Belmont says, "reverse's the same thing as stealing
somebody's homework and then just putting your name on my opinion"
Al_Gore says, "You all wouldn't have VCRs, cd players, digital audio tape,
compact cars, or cheap color televisions if it weren't for that piracy..."
Dr_Stone says,"Explain."
Laura_Gasaway says, "here comes the etic  ethics versus wants argument."
Dr_Wallace says, "But it's not illegal"
Dr_Lutin says, "Right, but our economy would be better off, less taxes (ha )
Al_Gore says, "Is there a point at which piracy pays off for everyone?"
Dr_Belmont says, "but we also wouldn't have a massive trade deficit..."
Dr_Grapefruit says, "each country has its own policy. gatt among others is
trying to find a medium between the differing policies"
Dr_Belmont says, "piracy always has to hurt somebody..."
Dr_Lutin says, "That's the question Al, cause if it does at some point pay off,
then we should allow freee distribution to LDC of IP."
Dr_Grapefruit says, "well that's the conotation o fthe word piracy after
Dr_Belmont says, "I wouldn't say that GATT is trying to find a medium...the
U.S. is very clear...they would rather have no agreement signed rather than a
weak agreement"
Al_Gore says, "LG, are there examples of IP laws that do have a two-tiered
approach?  Or are we just talking about licensing agreements at that point?"
Dr_Wallace says, "But will it pay off in money or just good feelings that we
helped another country"
Laura_Gasaway says, "To my knowledge we are just talking about licensing.  I do
remembrr some discussions prior to GATT about how to get access to ip for UDC
or LDC, but I am not sure it ever went anywherer."
Dr_Lutin says, "I think it could involve money in both directions, Wallace"
Dr_Wallace says, "then it's not worth it if it doesn't involve money?"
Dr_Lutin says, "But the good feelings are from increasing the standard of
living of many other people."
Laura_Gasaway says, "Al, sorry I cannot remember the whisper command, but IO
need to sign off to catch a plane.  I will talk to you on Monday - this was
geat fun!"
Dr_Belmont says, "if we help the LDCs, then in some cases the people of that
nation will honor a political debt towards...meaning they will support our
views on other international issues...unless you're Saddam Hussein of course"
Al_Gore says, "Can I ask a more general question?  When we discussed privacy
rights, we discovered that there was no constitutional right of privacy as
such, and that the legislation governing privacy was cobbled together from
analagous rights and specific cases..."
Dr_Lutin says, "It IS worth it, maybe.  We have to balance, in a somewhat
Utilitarian way"
Dr_Grapefruit says, "bye LG, thanks for coming"
Al_Gore says, "Lolly, thanks very much for being here:  we really appreciate
Atty_Morgan says, "Thanks LG."
Al_Gore says, "Come back any time you like..."
Dr_Wallace says, "Bye.  It was educational"
Dr_Belmont says, "great discussion LG! Thanks!"
Dr_Stone says,"See ya LG"
Dr_Sommers says, "bye and thankd"
Dr_Keynes says, "thanks"
Dr_Lutin says, "Thanks LG"
Dr_Hagenstone says, "Thank you!""
Dr_Briarly says, "thanks for the comments"
Dr_Rossi says, "bye!"
Laura_Gasaway says, "Bye everyone.""